Episode 57
The Comfortable Church: When Structure Replaces the Body
What happens when church structures become more important than the people they serve? This episode of Seek Go Create challenges the “comfortable church,” exploring how programs, leadership, and institutions can unintentionally replace authentic community and spiritual growth. The discussion raises tough questions about modern church culture, highlighting the tension between measurable success and genuine transformation. If you’ve ever wondered whether the church is functioning as a living body or running like a well-oiled machine, this episode will provoke your thinking and invite you into a deeper conversation.
"Comfort is not always evidence that the church is failing—it may be evidence that the body is becoming alive again." - Tim Winders
Access all show and episode resources HERE
Episode Resources:
- NT90 Hub – This is the central website for the 90-day New Testament reading plan, with downloadable, printable plans, background information, and links to all episodes and resources.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Body or Machine
00:55 NT90 Reading Plan
02:15 Context Over Quick Verses
02:54 From Homes to Industry
04:48 Institutional Comfort Drift
07:21 Metrics vs Spiritual Fruit
11:24 When Institutions Protect Themselves
15:43 Authority and Control
19:37 Questions and Accountability
21:33 Performance Over Formation
24:05 Integrity Over Performance
24:45 Unity Without Sameness
25:32 Programs vs Shared Life
28:13 A Better Church Measure
29:17 Gifts and Plural Leadership
30:21 Bearing Burdens Up Close
32:50 Truth Grace and Real Fruit
34:59 Repentance and Practical Changes
39:25 Protect People First
41:48 Reframing Church as Body
44:10 Next Topic Power and Politics
44:53 Final Charge Read the Text
Transcript
We have more teaching, more programs, more events, and more measurements than ever.
Speaker:Yet people remain lonely.
Speaker:Leaders become isolated.
Speaker:Wounded people are treated as threats when their pain could damage the institution.
Speaker:The New Testament describes the church as a body, alive through
Speaker:Christ and formed by the Spirit.
Speaker:What if we built a machine instead?
Speaker:Not everywhere, not with everyone.
Speaker:Real good is happening through sincere churches and faithful
Speaker:people, but the question remains.
Speaker:When the structure matters more than the people, the machine has replaced the body
Speaker:Hello, welcome to Seek Go Create.
Speaker:This is Tim Winders, and this is a continuation of all that we've been
Speaker:talking about as a spinoff, as a continuation of some work that I've
Speaker:been doing around the New Testament and context and order and, just having a lot
Speaker:of fun hanging out in the first century.
Speaker:One of the things I did early on in this process was write a
Speaker:program that established the order that the New Testament books were
Speaker:written in, and then it created a 90-day reading plan around that.
Speaker:Then, as a test, I actually immersed myself in the reading plan myself.
Speaker:All of this that we're doing now has spun off from that.
Speaker:So I actually think that you should do that, too.
Speaker:If you haven't, or if you have been doing it, I encourage you to keep
Speaker:doing it, but if you haven't, go get the reading plan, download it,
Speaker:so you can actually go through the process or check it out yourself.
Speaker:It is at k2m.foundation/nt90.
Speaker:The links should be down wherever you're listening or watching this from.
Speaker:Now, let's keep going.
Speaker:This is a standalone episode if you're just joining us now, but it
Speaker:really connects to some of the other things we've been talking about.
Speaker:Last time, we talked about our appetite for quick and comfortable Bible answers.
Speaker:We're sort of in this comfortable theology or comfortable Bible reading
Speaker:discussion that we've been having.
Speaker:We'll reach for one verse often.
Speaker:We remove it from the story.
Speaker:We turn it into a promise, a rule, or a formula.
Speaker:Then we use that answer to avoid the slower and more difficult
Speaker:work of context, discernment, deep study, and faithful obedience.
Speaker:But context-first reading does more than change how we understand a verse.
Speaker:It changes what we see when we read the whole New Testament.
Speaker:When we read it in order, what I saw were communities that gathered
Speaker:in homes and around tables.
Speaker:I saw plural leadership, not one solo leader at the top of every organization.
Speaker:I saw leaders known by character rather than the platform or
Speaker:how many followers they had.
Speaker:I saw gifts distributed across the body, more of a communal effort.
Speaker:I saw people sharing meals, resources, burdens, prayers, and daily life.
Speaker:I saw leaders serving communities rather than communities
Speaker:maintaining leaders' platforms.
Speaker:Then I looked at much of what we see in modern Christianity.
Speaker:In some ways, this was one of the catalysts for some of the
Speaker:study that I've been doing.
Speaker:It sort of nagged at me what I saw when I looked around.
Speaker:Buildings, stages, brands, professional roles, large budgets.
Speaker:I joke, smoke and fog machines, complex programs, weekend systems requiring
Speaker:hundreds of workers, most of them volunteers, just to keep the system going.
Speaker:Some of those things help people.
Speaker:Not gonna discount that, and I'm not gonna say that they're necessarily bad.
Speaker:Some carry real kingdom benefit But the contrast raised a question
Speaker:I could not dismiss: How did a family of spirit-filled communities
Speaker:become an industry of institutions?
Speaker:And it is an industry of institutions with massive amounts of financial
Speaker:resources and money going into it.
Speaker:How did elders become executives?
Speaker:How did gatherings become productions?
Speaker:How did disciples become attendees or consumers?
Speaker:How did shared life become a collection of programs?
Speaker:No single person planned this.
Speaker:It evolved and expanded and grew into this over time.
Speaker:No secret committee designed it.
Speaker:It developed slowly.
Speaker:One reasonable, probably thoughtful decision followed another.
Speaker:Each generation inherited structures and treated them as normal.
Speaker:This is how institutional drift and expansion works.
Speaker:Nobody necessarily has to be evil.
Speaker:The system simply begins protecting what it was built to preserve, and that
Speaker:brings comfort theology into the church.
Speaker:Comfort is not only padded seats, good coffee, convenient parking, and
Speaker:carefully timed and detailed services.
Speaker:The deeper comfort is institutional comfort.
Speaker:Institutional comfort means the organization can continue without
Speaker:facing questions that might threaten its identity, revenue,
Speaker:reputation, authority, or routine.
Speaker:The church may be extremely busy while remaining institutionally comfortable.
Speaker:Sometimes constant activity keeps deeper questions away.
Speaker:It sort of masks the question asking.
Speaker:So I wanna examine those questions today, not as an accusation from
Speaker:outside, as a confession from the inside.
Speaker:I have served these systems.
Speaker:I've defended them, I've benefited from them, I've attended them, and, I've
Speaker:judged people who stepped away from them.
Speaker:At times, I helped protect arrangements that felt normal
Speaker:because they also worked for me.
Speaker:The prosperity gospel background and roots that I had were part of that.
Speaker:I came to faith while chasing business and financial success, so visible growth,
Speaker:money, and influence could feel like evidence that a church was blessed.
Speaker:How well the pastor dressed and what cars they drove may, okay, it did
Speaker:at times impact me and influence me.
Speaker:I've also seen sincere leaders, faithful volunteers, real worship,
Speaker:practical help, restored relationships,
Speaker:and generous care inside churches.
Speaker:We should not erase that and should not ignore that.
Speaker:The question is not whether churches have structures.
Speaker:The question is whether the structures serve spirit-filled
Speaker:life or slowly replace it.
Speaker:Let's talk about how success is measured in these environments.
Speaker:Modern institutions need measurements.
Speaker:Churches are institutions.
Speaker:They have become that.
Speaker:If you say that they are not, then I believe that you are arguing against
Speaker:what they have actually become.
Speaker:They are institutions, and they have to use measurements to
Speaker:gauge how well they are doing.
Speaker:Attendance, giving, volunteers, conversions, baptisms, views,
Speaker:downloads, campuses, buildings, staff, programs, and it goes on and on and on.
Speaker:Numbers can provide some useful information.
Speaker:If attendance changes, leaders should understand why.
Speaker:If giving declines, obligations still have to be addressed.
Speaker:If a ministry helps nobody, continuing it may not be wise.
Speaker:The problem begins when useful measurements become definitions
Speaker:of spiritual health or blessings.
Speaker:Attendance can tell us whether people entered a room.
Speaker:It cannot tell us whether they forgave an enemy, cared for a neighbor, practiced
Speaker:integrity, or became more patient.
Speaker:A growing church may be healthy.
Speaker:It may also have excellent music, strong marketing, convenient
Speaker:programs, a gifted communicator, or a rapidly expanding population nearby.
Speaker:Those things can help people.
Speaker:They do not automatically prove divine approval Jesus drew crowds, then said
Speaker:things that caused many people to leave.
Speaker:In John six, the crowd becomes uncomfortable with his teaching.
Speaker:Jesus does not revise the message to protect attendance.
Speaker:He lets them walk away.
Speaker:That would create panic in many modern leadership meetings.
Speaker:The New Testament gives us a different set of indicators: love, joy,
Speaker:peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Speaker:Those are not easy to place on a dashboard or up on a flannelgraph
Speaker:or a board behind where the pastor sits or anything like that.
Speaker:They're just difficult to track and measure.
Speaker:How do you measure reconciliation?
Speaker:How do you count enemies who became neighbors?
Speaker:How do you report someone choosing integrity when dishonesty
Speaker:would've been profitable?
Speaker:How do you count quiet generosity nobody else knows happened?
Speaker:The Spirit's deepest work often grows without public recognition.
Speaker:Jesus describes seed growing beneath the soil, yeast working through dough,
Speaker:and a mustard seed beginning small.
Speaker:Visible systems prefer visible success.
Speaker:The kingdom often grows quietly and behind the scenes.
Speaker:Paul warned the Corinthians about comparing and measuring themselves
Speaker:by one another, 2 Corinthians 10:12.
Speaker:Corinth ranked speakers.
Speaker:People aligned themselves with Paul, Apollos, or Cephas.
Speaker:They valued impressive presentation.
Speaker:Paul kept redirecting them toward Christ, the cross,
Speaker:weakness, love, and mutual care.
Speaker:He did not deny gifts.
Speaker:He denied the scoreboard.
Speaker:A church with 2,000 people may be healthy.
Speaker:A church with 20 people may be healthy.
Speaker:Either may also be deeply unhealthy.
Speaker:Scale cannot answer the question.
Speaker:Fruit can.
Speaker:The second symptom that we see pop up is something called institutional protection.
Speaker:Things grow to a point where they have to start protecting that structure.
Speaker:Now, we're gonna go through this, but let me just tell you, this is
Speaker:something that grieves me to no end, and something that is really, really
Speaker:bothersome in today's world and culture.
Speaker:Institutions are not wrong for protecting people, resources, legal
Speaker:responsibilities, and continuity.
Speaker:Wisdom includes planning.
Speaker:I'm a strategic guy.
Speaker:I love planning things out, but an institution becomes spiritually dangerous
Speaker:when its own survival receives greater protection than truth or people.
Speaker:John 11 gives us one of the clearest examples.
Speaker:Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead.
Speaker:The religious leaders are there standing around watching it.
Speaker:They do not primarily ask whether the miracle reveals God's work.
Speaker:They ask what will happen to their place and nation if Jesus continues doing this.
Speaker:"If we let him go on like this," they say, "the Romans will come
Speaker:and take away both our place and our nation." That's in John 11:48.
Speaker:Their place mattered more than God that was walking amongst them doing miracles.
Speaker:Their authority mattered.
Speaker:Their arrangement with Rome mattered.
Speaker:Jesus threatened all of that.
Speaker:The miracle was not enough because the system had too much to lose.
Speaker:Modern institutions face the same spiritual test.
Speaker:What happens when truth threatens the leader?
Speaker:What happens when a wounded person threatens the reputation?
Speaker:What happens when scripture, actual scripture, challenges the funding model?
Speaker:What happens when a question threatens a denominational position?
Speaker:Protection is revealed by what receives immediate attention.
Speaker:Does the person receive care, or does the story receive management?
Speaker:Does damage control kick in?
Speaker:Does the leader face examination, or does the leader receive
Speaker:insulation and protection?
Speaker:Does the church tell the truth or protect confidence in the brand?
Speaker:A leader fails, and the first meeting concerns how do we communicate this?
Speaker:How do we protect what we have?
Speaker:Someone reports abuse, and the first question concerns exposure.
Speaker:A person is wounded, and the institution worries about division.
Speaker:The stated goal may be protecting the ministry, but if protecting the
Speaker:ministry requires silencing wounded people, the ministry has already
Speaker:abandoned the people it claims to serve.
Speaker:Truth does not threaten the body of Christ or the kingdom of God for that matter.
Speaker:Truth threatens whatever depends on concealment and things that have
Speaker:been built and developed by man.
Speaker:Repentance may feel dangerous to an institution, but repentance
Speaker:is not the church's enemy or the kingdom of God's enemy.
Speaker:It is one of God's gifts.
Speaker:A church that cannot confess has confused image with witness.
Speaker:Our witness is not that Christians never fail.
Speaker:Our witness is that Jesus remains faithful, truth can be faced, harm can
Speaker:be named, and repentance can become real.
Speaker:And listen to this clearly.
Speaker:People, leaders can be replaced In an environment where we say that
Speaker:cannot happen, we have already stepped outside of the Kingdom of God.
Speaker:That may cost the institution.
Speaker:Faithfulness has always carried a cost.
Speaker:There's also this situation, the third symptom that I'm gonna bring
Speaker:up, which is authority and control.
Speaker:And, oh, I wish I hadn't seen these abused so many times, but yet they have.
Speaker:I love leadership, and leadership matters.
Speaker:Communities need mature people who teach, guide, protect, correct, and care.
Speaker:The New Testament does not present leaderless chaos.
Speaker:It presents leadership shaped by a different operating system.
Speaker:Jesus washes feet in John 13.
Speaker:He does not perform humility as a leadership technique.
Speaker:He reveals the character of the king.
Speaker:In Matthew 20, Jesus contrasts kingdom leadership with Gentile domination.
Speaker:"The rulers of the Gentiles lord over them," he says.
Speaker:"It shall not be so among you." That's Matthew 20:25-26.
Speaker:That is direct.
Speaker:Rome consolidates authority.
Speaker:They bring power in.
Speaker:Power moves upward.
Speaker:Decisions move downward.
Speaker:Questioning the person above you carries consequences.
Speaker:Jesus describes something different.
Speaker:The greatest serves.
Speaker:Peter later calls himself a fellow elder, not the unquestioned ruler of the church.
Speaker:That's in 1 Peter 5:1.
Speaker:He warns leaders not to dominate the people entrusted to them, 1 Peter 5:3.
Speaker:In Ephesians 4, leaders equip the body for work of ministry.
Speaker:They do not perform all ministry while the body watches.
Speaker:Leadership serves what the Spirit is forming.
Speaker:It does not replace it.
Speaker:That is where the pastor as CEO model becomes difficult
Speaker:to reconcile with the text.
Speaker:That is using the world system techniques instead of Kingdom of God
Speaker:techniques with the body of Christ.
Speaker:A CEO sits at the top of an organizational structure.
Speaker:Responsibility and authority consolidate around that position.
Speaker:That structure may work for a company.
Speaker:But adding Christian language does not automatically turn
Speaker:it into kingdom leadership.
Speaker:A church can avoid the CEO title while still organizing
Speaker:everything around one personality.
Speaker:The leader carries the vision.
Speaker:The leader receives the revelation.
Speaker:The leader becomes the brand.
Speaker:The leader speaks most often.
Speaker:The leader decides what questions are safe.
Speaker:The community slowly becomes an audience supporting someone else's calling.
Speaker:That is not the body described in 1 Corinthians 12.
Speaker:The Spirit gives gifts across the body.
Speaker:Every part matters.
Speaker:No part gets to tell another part, "I have no need of you." And no leader gets
Speaker:to say, "I am the vision, and everyone else exists to support it." Kingdom
Speaker:authority is delegated, not owned.
Speaker:I like to say it's stewarded, not owned.
Speaker:A steward carries real responsibilities, but what the
Speaker:steward manages belongs to the king.
Speaker:They take care of it, they oversee it, and then they give it back,
Speaker:hopefully in a better condition than when they first received it.
Speaker:People do not belong to the pastor or the CEO leader of a church.
Speaker:The church does not belong to the founder.
Speaker:The platform does not belong to the speaker.
Speaker:The gifts do not belong to the gifted person.
Speaker:Everything belongs to Christ.
Speaker:The leader's task is not to gather control.
Speaker:It is to help the people recognize and follow the King and live the kingdom life.
Speaker:This is also why questions matter.
Speaker:The Bereans are commended because they examine what they hear in Acts 17:11.
Speaker:Thomas asks for evidence, and he asked Jesus that.
Speaker:You know what Jesus did?
Speaker:He showed him the evidence.
Speaker:He met him there.
Speaker:The apostles repeatedly misunderstood Jesus and asked questions.
Speaker:He corrects them, sometimes scolds them, teaches them, and
Speaker:continues walking with them.
Speaker:Doesn't kick them out and say they are not part of the body anymore.
Speaker:Questions are part of formation.
Speaker:I ask them all the time.
Speaker:My journal and my questions that I ask, I believe God embraces them
Speaker:and loves it, they would make some people… They make me squirm at times
Speaker:because they are some tough questions.
Speaker:But institutions built around certainty can experience questions as danger.
Speaker:We saw that.
Speaker:Many of us saw that in Bible school.
Speaker:Don't ask.
Speaker:In fact, we were told We were there to be discipled.
Speaker:Sit back, shut up, don't ask.
Speaker:That was almost an exact quote that we heard while we were in Bible school.
Speaker:Don't question things.
Speaker:You're here to just be discipled.
Speaker:A sincere question, though, may expose an unsupported tradition.
Speaker:It may reveal a policy nobody can defend from Scripture.
Speaker:It may show that a leader does not know, which is okay, but
Speaker:that's not what many leaders want.
Speaker:Healthy communities can say, we need to examine that.
Speaker:Unhealthy systems say, who gave you the authority to ask?
Speaker:And then they start twisting that word authority and misusing the
Speaker:Scriptures that talk about it.
Speaker:Calling does not remove accountability.
Speaker:It increases it.
Speaker:Now, let's look at something else.
Speaker:Let's talk about words like performance, conformity, and programmed community.
Speaker:This is a symptom that appears when all of those things begin
Speaker:replacing formation and shared life.
Speaker:Comfortable systems need predictable, manageable people that follow.
Speaker:Predictable people use approved language.
Speaker:They ask approved questions.
Speaker:They support approved leaders.
Speaker:They follow approved paths.
Speaker:Belonging becomes easier when people conform.
Speaker:But Jesus did not build his community from predictable people.
Speaker:He chose fishermen, a tax collector, political zealots, doubters,
Speaker:impulsive personalities, and people who repeatedly misunderstood him.
Speaker:They argued.
Speaker:They competed.
Speaker:They failed.
Speaker:They ran away.
Speaker:Peter denied Jesus.
Speaker:Thomas demanded evidence.
Speaker:James and John wanted positions.
Speaker:Jesus formed them through relationship correction, failure,
Speaker:forgiveness, and the Spirit.
Speaker:The process was not polished.
Speaker:It was a living, growing organization of real-world people.
Speaker:Performance offers an institutional shortcut.
Speaker:If people learn the right language and public behavior, the
Speaker:system can treat them as mature.
Speaker:They attend, they volunteer, they give, they smile, they agree.
Speaker:They know when to stand, sing, pray, and say, "Amen." But none of
Speaker:those actions tell us what happens at home and what happens in the
Speaker:heart, what's going on inside.
Speaker:Performance can hide loneliness, addiction, resentment, fear,
Speaker:abuse, and spiritual exhaustion.
Speaker:It can hide leaders, too.
Speaker:A gifted speaker can preach about family while neglecting their own family.
Speaker:A worship leader can create an emotional moment while
Speaker:living without accountability.
Speaker:A ministry team can produce excellence while treating
Speaker:one another badly backstage.
Speaker:Jesus does not reject excellence.
Speaker:He rejects religious performance detached from the heart.
Speaker:Matthew twenty-three describes leaders who clean the outside while
Speaker:ignoring what has grown inside.
Speaker:That warning is not only for the Pharisees.
Speaker:It is for every religious system that rewards appearance.
Speaker:The Spirit forms integrity.
Speaker:The same person appears in private and in public.
Speaker:Not perfection, integrity.
Speaker:That kind of formation requires truth, patience, grace,
Speaker:accountability, and relationships strong enough to survive confession.
Speaker:A performance culture cannot provide that safety.
Speaker:It needs people to keep appearing successful, to kind of be fake,
Speaker:to kind of just show up and hide everything that doesn't need to
Speaker:be brought out in those settings.
Speaker:A spirit-formed body can tell the truth.
Speaker:Conformity is not unity.
Speaker:Unity matters deeply in the New Testament, but unity does not require
Speaker:the same personality, politics, questions, worship preferences, or
Speaker:interpretation of every secondary issue.
Speaker:Paul's image is a body with different parts.
Speaker:Difference is not a defect in that image.
Speaker:Difference is necessary.
Speaker:The eye is not the hand.
Speaker:The ear is not the foot.
Speaker:Institutional conformity says, "Become more like us." Spirit-formed unity says,
Speaker:"Remain connected to Christ and learn to love one another." One produces sameness.
Speaker:The other produces a living body, a kingdom.
Speaker:A kingdom, that is what is discussed in the New Testament.
Speaker:Programs can create real opportunities.
Speaker:They could look great.
Speaker:A class can teach.
Speaker:A support group can help.
Speaker:A children's ministry can serve families.
Speaker:A meal ministry can meet a real need, but a program cannot love someone.
Speaker:People love someone.
Speaker:Acts describes believers sharing meals, homes, prayers, resources, and daily life.
Speaker:Paul's letters assume people know one another well enough to bear burdens,
Speaker:forgive offenses, and practice hospitality, and notice those in need.
Speaker:Community is more than being near people during an event.
Speaker:A person can attend a crowded service, join a group, complete a course, and
Speaker:remain totally unknown and lonely.
Speaker:The danger appears when every need receives another program.
Speaker:Care becomes something the church offers instead of something the people practice.
Speaker:Discipleship becomes a curriculum.
Speaker:Hospitality becomes an event.
Speaker:Service becomes a department.
Speaker:Healthy programs create opportunities for shared life.
Speaker:They cannot replace it.
Speaker:community begins when people take responsibility for one another.
Speaker:Someone notices who is missing.
Speaker:Someone makes room for grief.
Speaker:People share when resources are scarce.
Speaker:Truth and restoration remain possible when someone fails.
Speaker:That cannot be outsourced to staff.
Speaker:Jesus formed the disciples through teaching and shared life.
Speaker:He walked, ate, traveled, faced conflict, and responded to interruptions with them.
Speaker:Sometimes the answer is not another event or service.
Speaker:It is a table, an honest conversation, and people willing to remain present
Speaker:when life becomes inconvenient The point is not to destroy churches.
Speaker:It is not to romanticize the first century.
Speaker:They were under real persecution.
Speaker:We don't wanna duplicate that.
Speaker:The early communities had divisions, sexual misconduct, false teaching,
Speaker:financial conflict, ethnic tension, pride, and leadership problems.
Speaker:Just read 1 Corinthians.
Speaker:The early church was alive, not idealized.
Speaker:The New Testament does not show a perfect community.
Speaker:It shows a spirit-formed body learning how to live under
Speaker:Jesus as king in his kingdom.
Speaker:That is the positive alternative.
Speaker:Not no structure, structure serving life in the real world.
Speaker:Not no leadership, leadership serving people.
Speaker:Not no gathering, gathering serving mutual encouragement,
Speaker:worship, formation, and care.
Speaker:Not no teaching, teaching that equips people to read, discern, obey, and grow.
Speaker:Not no measurements, a better measure, fruit instead of scale,
Speaker:faithfulness instead of visibility, love instead of loyalty to a brand.
Speaker:Christ remains the center.
Speaker:The leader points beyond themselves.
Speaker:John the Baptist said, "He must increase, but I must decrease." That's John 3:30.
Speaker:That is not a branding strategy.
Speaker:It is the leader's freedom.
Speaker:If people become less dependent on the leader and more faithful to Jesus, the
Speaker:ministry has succeeded, and the Kingdom of God is growing, not that leader's kingdom.
Speaker:Second, the Spirit distributes gifts across the people.
Speaker:1 Corinthians 12 does not describe a platform and an audience.
Speaker:It describes many members contributing to one body.
Speaker:Some teach, some encourage, some give, some lead, some serve, some show mercy.
Speaker:Every gift serves the common good.
Speaker:They serve that kingdom.
Speaker:Third, leadership is plural, local, and known by character.
:23 describes elders in the churches.
:Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 emphasize character, hospitable, self-controlled,
:faithful, mature, respected.
:The focus is not charisma, platform, the ability to do certain
:things on stage and draw crowds,
:That is not what it says.
:The community recognizes people whose lives already demonstrate service.
:Fourth.
:People bear one another's burdens.
:2 does not say, "Refer every burden to the appropriate
:department." It's interesting, our son was probably late teens, early 20s.
:He was out in LA.
:LA's a tough town anyway.
:He was trying to just get established.
:He was attending a church there, a pretty large, well-known
:church, and he was cleaning up.
:He was part of the cleaning team, so he was serving, probably tithing and giving
:whatever small amounts of money he had.
:And he was going through some stuff like a lot of people do, and we told him to
:approach some of the men in the church, maybe some men in church leadership,
:and see if he could have some coffee with them, conversations, or whatever.
:He did that to a few people, and the comment received back was something to
:the effect of, "My time is not my own. I don't have the time to meet with you."
:Well, that is the version of refer every burden to the appropriate department.
:We don't have time for individuals.
:We're trying to build a big platform here.
:That is bothersome.
:It says that we really should bear one another's burdens.
:That requires proximity.
:It requires meeting with someone that comes to you and says, "Hey, I would
:really like to meet and have a cup of coffee. Can we talk?" Not responding with,
:"My time is not my own. My duty is to the bigger organization and institution."
:It requires time to meet with people, and it may not be scalable.
:It may interrupt the calendar.
:Love is rarely efficient.
:The fifth thing, the poor and overlooked receive attention.
:James warns communities against giving the best seat to the
:wealthy while dishonoring the poor.
:That's James 2:1-7.
:The church is not healthy because influential people attend.
:I've seen that.
:There's seats reserved in the front for the important people.
:And, and you know what?
:That seems cool.
:It seems neat.
:Mm. I don't really care for it.
:Health appears in how the community treats the person who cannot improve
:its reputation, revenue, or reach.
:The next thing, I think it's six on my list, truth and grace remain together.
:The spirit-formed body does not avoid correction.
:It also does not use correction to control people.
:Truth serves restoration.
:Galatians six one tells spiritual people to restore someone gently
:while watching themselves.
:Gentleness matters.
:Self-awareness matters.
:The goal is not punishment or public victory.
:The goal is restoration.
:And finally, fruit matters more than machinery.
:A church may use building staff technology programs and strong systems.
:The question is whether those tools serve spirit-formed life.
:Do they serve the Kingdom of God?
:Or are they just tools that are being used to do something else, build a brand?
:Are people becoming more loving?
:Are leaders becoming more humble?
:Are lonely people becoming family?
:Are enemies being treated as people Jesus loves?
:Are resources moving toward people in need?
:Are questions becoming safer?
:Is confession becoming possible?
:Is power becoming accountable?
:Is the community learning to follow Jesus without constant institutional pressure?
:Those questions tell us more than the size of the crowd.
:The spirit forms a body, not a machine.
:A machine can keep running while people are exhausted, lonely, or wounded.
:A living body feels the pain.
:A machine measures output.
:A body shares life.
:A machine protects efficiency.
:A body protects its members.
:A machine can lose a part and keep operating.
:A body notices the wound.
:The question is not whether the church is efficient, the question
:is whether the body is alive.
:What does this mean for us?
:Because we can rant about what's wrong all day long, but how does that apply to us?
:A critique of church systems can leave us with two false choices: defend
:everything or destroy everything.
:The New Testament offers another path, repentance.
:Repentance lets us acknowledge real good while examining what our
:systems reward, protect, and produce.
:Jesus is not threatened by truth.
:The Spirit is not dependent on our current arrangements.
:So what can change?
:Number one, we can measure fruit, not activity.
:Attendance, giving, budget, staffing, and participation provide useful information.
:They do.
:I'm not saying we don't track that.
:They cannot tell us whether people are becoming more like Jesus.
:Ask better questions.
:Are people growing in the fruit of the Spirit?
:Are broken relationships moving toward reconciliation?
:Are lonely people becoming known?
:Can people confess failure without being discarded and pushed out?
:Are leaders becoming humbler as their influence grows, or
:is it becoming more about them?
:Fruit is slower to recognize than attendance.
:It is also closer to what the New Testament calls life.
:What we celebrate teaches people what matters.
:Celebrate reconciliation, unseen service, costly integrity, and
:care that never becomes content.
:Second item, make authority accountable.
:Leadership is necessary.
:I am not one, as a leadership coach, going to discard leadership.
:Accountability is part of faithful leadership.
:Who can question the senior leader?
:Who evaluates decisions involving money, reputation, or personal relationships?
:Can disagreement happen without punishment?
:Are leaders chosen for character or loyalty to a personality?
:Calling does not remove accountability.
:It actually increases it.
:Jesus said worldly rulers dominate those beneath them, then told his
:disciples, "It shall not be so among you." That's in Matthew twenty,
:twenty-five through twenty-six.
:Accountable authority welcomes wise challenge.
:It does not use spiritual language to end honest questions or confuse
:loyalty to Christ with loyalty to one leader, typically a man.
:When a leader fails, the goal cannot be preserving the platform
:and protecting the organization.
:The goal must be truth, care, justice, repentance, and restoration
:where restoration is possible.
:Grace does not require continued access to power.
:No person should become too important to question.
:Number three, let programs serve relationships or almost force
:programs to serve relationships.
:Programs are just tools.
:The question is what they produce.
:Do they help people know and care for one another?
:Do they equip people to practice ministry beyond the scheduled event?
:Do they strengthen the body or create dependence on staff?
:Do they leave room for neighbors, meals, friendship, rest?
:and prayer, quiet time, maybe even some solitude.
:A healthy Bible class helps people read scripture when the teacher is absent.
:A healthy care ministry helps the whole community notice pain.
:A healthy group creates relationships that continue after the meeting ends.
:Not every need requires another department.
:Not every good idea requires another event.
:The church is not stronger because everyone is busy.
:It is stronger when people love one another.
:Number four, protect people before the reputation.
:This may be the clearest test of institutional comfort.
:When someone reports harm or abuse, what receives protection first?
:The person The leader, the ministry, the public image, a wounded person
:is not a public relations problem.
:A question is not an attack.
:A disclosure is not disloyalty.
:Listen before managing the story.
:Take reports seriously.
:Involve qualified outside help when necessary.
:Report suspected crimes to the proper authorities.
:Do not ask staff to investigate leaders who control their
:employment, paycheck, or future.
:A church does not protect its witness by hiding harm.
:It protects its witness by choosing truth, justice, compassion, and repentance.
:When one member suffers, every member suffers.
:That's 1 Corinthians 12:26.
:A living body responds to pain.
:I say this with all the confession and strength that I can.
:I have served, defended, and benefited from church systems.
:I have seen some real good within them.
:I have also accepted practices too quickly because they were
:familiar, effective, or comfortable.
:The answer is not contempt for the church.
:It is love strong enough to tell the truth.
:Measure fruit.
:Make authority accountable.
:Let programs serve relationships.
:Protect the people before reputation.
:The building, the budget, leadership, and programs can serve the body.
:They can.
:It is not the other way around.
:None of them can become the body.
:The spirit forms of people who love, share, confess,
:forgive, protect, and serve.
:That is not machinery.
:That is life.
:That is the kingdom of God Something I think we would all agree, or many of us
:would agree, something feels wrong with modern Christianity, with the modern
:church, the church world, I call it.
:Something doesn't seem right.
:Maybe part of the reason is that we've learned to call
:the institution the church.
:Maybe we're calling it the wrong thing.
:Maybe we've got these institutions with buildings that people go to, but
:that that is not really the church.
:And then we protected the institution as if it were protecting Christ.
:Sincere people built much of what we inherited.
:Real good has come through it.
:God has worked through imperfect churches, leaders, systems, and people.
:I've said that before.
:The kingdom of God can work in a lot of rough situations.
:Even though we say things that, that are going on in churches, the
:kingdom of God can still work there.
:That includes me.
:I've gotten a lot of benefit.
:But God working through something does not mean everything about
:it should remain unquestioned.
:The spirit is still forming a body, and the body feels pain.
:A body notices when someone is missing.
:A body needs every member.
:A body remains connected to Christ.
:The church does not need less wisdom or organization.
:It needs to remember what the organization is for.
:What is its purpose?
:The building serves the people.
:The leader serves the people.
:The program serves the people.
:The budget serves the people.
:Together, the people serve Christ and one another, and that is what forms
:the kingdom of God, that kingdom that Jesus brought forth and described in
:the New Testament Truth may disrupt us.
:Repentance may cost us.
:Shared life will inconvenience us.
:But discomfort is not always evidence that the church is failing.
:It may be evidence that the body is becoming alive again, becoming
:what it really needs to become.
:That is where the next conversation begins.
:Comfort theology does not stop with church structure.
:When an institution feels threatened, political protection
:can begin to look spiritual.
:So what happens when a threatened institution reaches for political power to
:protect its place, influence, and comfort?
:That is where we're going next in God, country, and comfort.
:The kingdom does not need an institution to protect it.
:The king is still present.
:The Spirit is still forming a people, and the body can live.
:If you haven't done it, get the reading plan, k2m.foundation/nt90.
:If you have done it, reach out to somebody else who needs it, who needs to be brought
:into the story that we're telling about the New Testament in order, in context.
:That's k2m.foundation/nt90.
:Share that link with others so that they can download it.
:Read the New Testament in order and in context.
:Don't take my word for it.
:Go to the text.
:This is Tim Winders.
:Thanks for joining me here.
:Keep digging.
:Keep seeking.
:I'll see you next time.
